# Wiimote Project

## Hardware Support => IR Pens => Topic started by: benpaddlejones on May 06, 2008, 03:19:29 AM

Title: Electronics 101 - Basics for those who want to make their own IR-Pen.
Post by: benpaddlejones on May 06, 2008, 03:19:29 AM
Wiimote friends!

This is a comprehensive knowledgebase on the 'need to know' issues when making your own IR-Pen. Covering basic eletronic principles and desirable IR-Led qualities. How you design and construct your pen is totally up to you. I have linked to my instructional videos as the bottom, but I also suggest you Google IR-Pen and read the Forum posts to find many other concepts.

Lesson 1: Use the correct power source
Make sure the minimum voltage from you power source exceeds the max voltage of the diode.
Example:
Vishay 6400 has a Maximum Forward Voltage = 1.6v
NIMH 1.2v Rechargeable AAA/AA Min Voltage = 0.8v
1.6/0.8 = 2
To ensure IR-LED is correctly powered 2x 1.2v Batteries are required
(You calculate using Minimum Source Voltage and Maximum Forward Voltage to ensure Diode is always adequately powered)

Lesson 2: Use a resistor
They saves blowing IR-LED's and prolongs the life of diode and battery. They only cost about 15 cents.
To calculate the required resistor you need the Maximum Source Voltage, Diode Typical Forward Voltage and Diode Forward Current. Smart people (not me) will use Ohm's Law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ohm's_law), the rest just use an online calculator like http://led.linear1.org/1led.wiz (http://led.linear1.org/1led.wiz).
Example:
Vishay 6400 Typical Forward Voltage = 1.35v
2x 1.2v Rechargeable AAA/AA Batteries = 2.4v
Diode Forward Current = 100ma
Put this data into the online calculator and you will get a 12ohm Resistor.
(You use the Maximum Source Voltage and the Typical Diode Forward Voltage to ensure Diode is adequately protected)

This is main data from Vishay's Datasheet for the TSAL6400 used to calculate the above. I have circled the necessary information. The Power Source data will need to come from its manufacturer too.
See below for full datasheet's

Lesson 3: IR LED's are polarity sensitive
The long connector (anode) is positive and the short connector (cathode) is negative. If you look carefully at the LED the cathode is the flat piece inside.
(http://www.ledhost.com/images/led_construction.gif)

Lesson 4: Get a wide viewing angle IR-LED
I have tried a few 30 degree and a really strong 25 degree LED and all work best when directed into the wiimote, rather than the whiteboard as I intend to use it (thus not very good at angles). (Vishay 6400 seems to be the way).
(http://www.scielo.br/img/revistas/ca/v17n2/a08fig01.gif)
Viewing angle graphs like this can usually be found on the IR-LED Datasheet (this is random example and not related to the IR-LED pics below)

Lesson 5: Use the correct IR-Led Wavelength
The filter at the front of the Wiimote filters certain wave lengths. The preffered wave length is 940nm. Some IR-Led's have lower wavelengths still in the Infrared Spectrum but are filtered by the wiimote. Thanks to  :D inio  :D for his knowledge, the theory is explained here:
http://www.wiimoteproject.com/ir-pens/what-is-the-wiimotes-preferred-peak-wavelength-t867.0.html (http://www.wiimoteproject.com/ir-pens/what-is-the-wiimotes-preferred-peak-wavelength-t867.0.html)

Lesson 6: Get a strong IR-LED
Having tried a few 20ma LED's have found too week at distance, 100ma is the ideal strength. (again Vishay 6400 seems to be the way).

Vishay Data Sheets
•    TSAL6200 - http://www.vishay.com/docs/81010/tsal6200.pdf (http://www.vishay.com/docs/81010/tsal6200.pdf)
•    TSAL6400 - http://www.vishay.com/docs/81011/tsal6400.pdf (http://www.vishay.com/docs/81011/tsal6400.pdf)
•    TSAL7200 - http://www.vishay.com/docs/81012/tsal7200.pdf (http://www.vishay.com/docs/81012/tsal7200.pdf)

Lesson 7: How do I know my IR-LED works???
Easy look at it through your mobile phone camera (cool little trick). You will be able to see the importance of the viewing angle, with the 25 degree from the side it looks like a dim light in the distance, front on it is very bright. (Remember 25 degree's means 12.5 degree's either side of 0 degree's. Thus not very wide, even over a long distance)

These photo's are from a camera phone of a: 25 Degree viewing angle, 1.2v AAA, 12ohms Resistor, 100ma LED. Note you can "see" the light and how difficult it will be for an IR sensor to detect the light from angles greater than 35 degree's, but also how strong it is at 0 degree's.

LED @ 90 degree's

LED @ 20 degree's

LED @ 0 degree's

Lesson 8: Scematic
A basic IR-Pen scematic:

Lesson 9: Read all the instructions & feedback
I left this to last knowing most people like me won't even read the first lesson, until they get totally stuck or until they finally got it to work and then read the instructions to check they did it right!
benpaddlejonesIRPENmach1 failed because I only read the ingredients list (2x AAA batteries) but didn't read the complete instructions that said I should only use 1 of the 2 batteries!  ???
benpaddlejonesIRPENmach2: failed because I reverse wired it and assumed it was a busted LED! :-[
benpaddlejonesIRPENmach3: works (mostly thanks to the really smart dude at www.altronics.com.au) but only if it is directed at the wiimote because of its small viewing angle! >:(
benpaddlejonesIRPENmach4: Works AWESOME ;D see my video:http://www.wiimoteproject.com/videos/enhancing-teaching-learning-with-the-wiimote-interactive-whiteboard-t983.0.html (http://www.wiimoteproject.com/videos/enhancing-teaching-learning-with-the-wiimote-interactive-whiteboard-t983.0.html)

may your wiimote be with you!
Title: Re: Electronics 101 - sharing my mistakes or learning electronics the hardway?
Post by: UndCon on May 06, 2008, 05:42:54 AM
great knowledgebase

//UndCon
Title: Re: Electronics 101 - sharing my mistakes or learning electronics the hardway?
Post by: benpaddlejones on May 08, 2008, 01:16:44 AM
IR - LED Experiment

I have just ordered a range of Vishay & Osram IR LED's from 25-160 degree viewing angle.

I will run an experiemnt to see which gives the best performance.

Title: Re: Electronics 101 - sharing my mistakes or learning electronics the hardway?
Post by: Kurtangletn on May 08, 2008, 12:13:40 PM
Hey good tutorial.

What LED are you using in that picture?
Title: Re: Electronics 101 - sharing my mistakes or learning electronics the hardway?
Post by: benpaddlejones on May 08, 2008, 07:45:52 PM
What LED are you using in that picture?

25 Degree 100ma Viewing angle from Dick Smith Electronics (www.dse.com.au). A Australian electronics and components retail outlet. (similar to USA - Radioshack)

It doesn't work unless you point it directly at Wiimote ( no good for interactive white board).

I have just ordered a range of IR-LED's (from 25 degree VA to 160 degree VA) and I'm going to run an experiemnt to see which viewing angle works best, will post results.

Title: Re: Electronics 101 - Sharing my mistakes! - *** UPDATED ***
Post by: benpaddlejones on May 24, 2008, 11:22:41 PM
Added a new lesson on preffered wave lengths

:D :D :D
Title: Re: Electronics 101 - Sharing my mistakes! - *** UPDATED ***
Post by: apdewith on May 31, 2008, 04:38:41 PM
Thanks for the excellent tutorial! One question though: what about the 'radiant intensity' of an IR led. Does that play any role in selecting the most suitable IR led?
Title: Re: Electronics 101 - sharing my mistakes or learning electronics the hardway?
Post by: takai on June 01, 2008, 02:35:27 AM
What LED are you using in that picture?

25 Degree 100ma Viewing angle from Dick Smith Electronics (www.dse.com.au). A Australian electronics and components retail outlet. (similar to USA - Radioshack)

It doesn't work unless you point it directly at Wiimote ( no good for interactive white board).

I have just ordered a range of IR-LED's (from 25 degree VA to 160 degree VA) and I'm going to run an experiemnt to see which viewing angle works best, will post results.

Where are you getting the 160deg VA IR led from? DSE and Jaycar both do 25deg ones, and the waterclear ones from DealExtreme are 40ish deg.
Im going to try RS Components and Farnell on Monday.
Title: Re: Electronics 101 - sharing my mistakes or learning electronics the hardway?
Post by: benpaddlejones on June 01, 2008, 04:36:36 AM
Where are you getting the 160deg VA IR led from? DSE and Jaycar both do 25deg ones, and the waterclear ones from DealExtreme are 40ish deg.
Im going to try RS Components and Farnell on Monday.

Farnell
They are only 80deg (farnell's website was wrong) they don't work as well as Vishay TSAL6400.

I suggest go direct to Farnell and get Vishay TSAL6400 anything else doesn't work as well. (DSE, Jaycar and Altronics are useless).

Title: Re: Electronics 101 - Sharing my mistakes! - *** UPDATED ***
Post by: benpaddlejones on June 01, 2008, 04:55:24 AM
Thanks for the excellent tutorial! One question though: what about the 'radiant intensity' of an IR led. Does that play any role in selecting the most suitable IR led?

I could be a little (or a lot) out of my depth but:

My understanding is Radient Intensity is a measure of light emmited over a period of time. Given the Wiimote locks for Blobs either at the IR-LED or reflected on the whitebaord this is not overlly relievent. It is also a function of the forward current so that is a suitable measure of strength for us nOOb's.  :D

I welcome correction and advice from any Electronic/Physic Guru's though.

Title: Re: Electronics 101 - Sharing my mistakes! - *** UPDATED ***
Post by: KaosMaster on June 01, 2008, 05:07:07 AM
I am probably the uber-est n00b when it comes to this kind of electronics stuff so I'm not quite sure what to do. I thought I'd try out this wiimote whiteboard thing just to learn something and have a little fun at the same time :) I have bought some Vishay TSAL 6400 LED's so far... and I have no idea what to do. I did not buy resistors because I'm not sure what to get.

I understand that the LED's forward voltage is 1.35v and a max voltage of 1.6v? So if the voltage of a battery is 1.5v will it work without any resistors?

I'm sorry for asking what are probably some really stupid questions but I would love to get this working.
I appreciate anyone that takes the time to answer me :)
Title: Re: Electronics 101 - Sharing my mistakes! - *** UPDATED ***
Post by: Francisco on June 01, 2008, 06:50:19 AM
Kaos,

To know how to do a IR Pen go to my IR pens pages:
http://clinik.net/wiimote/wiimote_info_my_pen_1.php (http://clinik.net/wiimote/wiimote_info_my_pen_1.php)
http://clinik.net/wiimote/wiimote_info_my_pen_2.php (http://clinik.net/wiimote/wiimote_info_my_pen_2.php)

I use a 1.35v - 1.6v led with a 1,5v battery with good results!!!

Cheers!
Title: Re: Electronics 101 - Sharing my mistakes! - *** UPDATED ***
Post by: takai on June 01, 2008, 07:18:18 AM
Looks like its farnell after all, might have to order 25 or 50 of them to make the shipping worthwhile.

Either that or wait until the electronics guys at work order something from them.
Title: Re: Electronics 101 - Sharing my mistakes! - *** UPDATED ***
Post by: apdewith on June 01, 2008, 06:03:03 PM
Thanks for the excellent tutorial! One question though: what about the 'radiant intensity' of an IR led. Does that play any role in selecting the most suitable IR led?

I could be a little (or a lot) out of my depth but:

My understanding is Radient Intensity is a measure of light emmited over a period of time. Given the Wiimote locks for Blobs either at the IR-LED or reflected on the whitebaord this is not overlly relievent. It is also a function of the forward current so that is a suitable measure of strength for us nOOb's.  :D

I welcome correction and advice from any Electronic/Physic Guru's though.

See http://www.vishay.com/docs/49495/sg2123.pdf
I see that the wider the angle the lower the radient intensity. The difference between the 5300 and the 6400 reveals that the 5300 will be brighter as is mentioned somewhere in this forum.
Title: Re: Electronics 101 - Sharing my mistakes! - *** UPDATED ***
Post by: Francisco on June 01, 2008, 06:55:38 PM
apdewith and all,

http://www.wiimoteproject.com/ir-pens/inside-my-ir-pen-t929.0.html (http://www.wiimoteproject.com/ir-pens/inside-my-ir-pen-t929.0.html)

"Can we say that TSAL 5300 is better than TSAL 6400?
Have we a 'new' winning IR led?"

I have two pens:

TSUS 5400
(IR Pen #1 - with red end)

Peak Wavelength: 950
Angle of Half: 22
Rise and Fall: 14

TSAL 5300
(IR Pen #2 - with black end)

Peak Wavelength: 940
Angle of Half: 22
Rise and Fall: 45

I post here a photo (made by Macbook Pro webam...) of both
@ 90 degree's and @ 45 degree's.
The 45 degree's photo shows very clearly which its brighter!!!

(http://clinik.net/wiimote/Photo%205.jpg)

(http://clinik.net/wiimote/Photo%206.jpg)

http://clinik.net/wiimote/wiimote_info.php (http://clinik.net/wiimote/wiimote_info.php))

I don't have a TSAL 6400 to check... but the TSAL 5300 works very well.
Again, have we a new Rolls Royce IR Led?
:D

Cheers
Francisco
Title: Re: Electronics 101 - Sharing my mistakes! - *** UPDATED ***
Post by: benpaddlejones on June 02, 2008, 02:29:26 AM
KaosMaster
I am probably the uber-est n00b when it comes to this kind of electronics stuff

I with you, this is just the product of a lot of research!

so I'm not quite sure what to do. I thought I'd try out this wiimote whiteboard thing just to learn something and have a little fun at the same time :) I have bought some Vishay TSAL 6400 LED's so far... and I have no idea what to do. I did not buy resistors because I'm not sure what to get.

I understand that the LED's forward voltage is 1.35v and a max voltage of 1.6v? So if the voltage of a battery is 1.5v will it work without any resistors?

Keep it simple:

IR-LED to switch to 1x 1.2v Rechargeable AAA back to IR-LED
Only requires a few solders, the IR-LED is a little underpowered but I don't seam to have any problems and no need for a resistor so two less solders to mess up.

I managed to fit all this in a 'Artline' permanent marker confiscated from one of my lovely students!

I'm sorry for asking what are probably some really stupid questions but I would love to get this working.
I appreciate anyone that takes the time to answer me :)
No such thing as a stupid question!

Good Luck
Title: Re: Electronics 101 - Sharing my mistakes! - *** UPDATED ***
Post by: benpaddlejones on June 02, 2008, 02:38:55 AM
apdewith and all,
"Can we say that TSAL 5300 is better than TSAL 6400?
Have we a 'new' winning IR led?"

Can you do a quick test:
Using JCL's App in pen mode in Onenote or similar write over two words on a projected image and see how close both pens track to the actual word.

Take a photo and post.

Title: Re: Electronics 101 - Sharing my mistakes! - *** UPDATED ***
Post by: KaosMaster on June 02, 2008, 02:51:02 AM

I'll probably try the two AA rechargable batteries coz i've got a few lying around. I will let you know how it went once I get it working.
Title: Re: Electronics 101 - Sharing my mistakes! - *** UPDATED ***
Post by: benpaddlejones on June 02, 2008, 04:41:09 AM
KaosMaster
Only need 1x battery (2x 1.5v = 3v)

Title: Re: Electronics 101 - Sharing my mistakes! - *** UPDATED ***
Post by: KaosMaster on June 02, 2008, 06:52:48 AM
Oh... haha. Thanks for telling me.. I probably would've blown quite a few LED's trying to get that to work with 2 batteries. I probably won't be able to do it till the weekend. Damn exams coming up. lol.
Title: Re: Electronics 101 - Sharing my mistakes! - *** UPDATED ***
Post by: Francisco on June 02, 2008, 09:18:54 AM
Can you do a quick test:
Using JCL's App in pen mode in Onenote or similar write over two words on a projected image and see how close both pens track to the actual word.
Take a photo and post.

I'm a Mac user. I use http://www.uweschmidt.org/wiimote-whiteboard/ (http://www.uweschmidt.org/wiimote-whiteboard/) and I'm very happy with the work of Uwe!!!
;)

I can use http://www.panic.com/desktastic/ (http://www.panic.com/desktastic/) to do this accurate test but remember:
I don't have a TSAL 6400... I have a TSUS 5400 and a TSAL 5300!
Title: Re: Electronics 101 - Sharing my mistakes! - *** UPDATED ***
Post by: benpaddlejones on June 02, 2008, 02:35:18 PM
Francisco
No probs just turn off mouse smoothing as that will mask minor quality issuess.

Title: Re: Electronics 101 - Sharing my mistakes! - *** UPDATED ***
Post by: mikethm on June 03, 2008, 02:13:32 PM
I am uber noob and I am confused by the talk about voltages... Thing is, I found a keychain led where it is just a matter of replacing the normal led with a infrared light. A 3 second process.Pull out and push in... that's it.

What I would like to know is... it uses 2x CR2016 3v button type batteries like those you use in scientific calculators... so are those equal to 4 x 1.5v batteries you guys talking about here?

And would someone be so kind as to recommend a suitable led for my situation?

Edit: I found that I could replace the x2 CR2016 with a single 3v CR2032... will that do without the need for a resistor? Thanks
Title: Re: Electronics 101 - Sharing my mistakes! - *** UPDATED ***
Post by: benpaddlejones on June 03, 2008, 06:03:32 PM
mikethm
Read my first post from this topic, it explains everything.

You need to read the data sheet from your IR-LED manufacturer (different IR-LED's have different specs).

My post shows you what to look for.

If you are using 2x 3volt batteries then your source voltage is 6volts. When you know the data from your IR-LED manufacturer use the resistor calculator to calculate required resistance.

You may find you will need a resistor or you will find IR-LED life is very short.

As I said though read my post (particularly the last lesson, I'm guessing your like me and this lesson is both our realities  ;D)

Title: Re: Electronics 101 - Sharing my mistakes! - *** UPDATED ***
Post by: mikethm on June 03, 2008, 11:19:38 PM
No. You misunderstood me. What I am trying to say is... I can't put in a resistor becase there is only space to slide in the led. So I would appreciate if anyone can  tell me that using a 3v CR2032 battery on a led with typical forward voltage of 2.2v and max reverse of 5v is ok?

Title: Re: Electronics 101 - Sharing my mistakes! - *** UPDATED ***
Post by: benpaddlejones on June 03, 2008, 11:35:14 PM
mikethm
1. Reverse voltage means nothing for your application, what matters is the typical voltage.
2. If only 1x3v battery then you MAY get away with it but your IR-LED life will be shortened compared to if you use a resistor
3. If you are using 2x3v batteries the life of the IR-LED will be very short

IR-LED's are quite cheap given ease of installation, suck it and see!

The higher voltage reduces the life of the cathode so it annodises too quickly and burns out!

Title: Re: Electronics 101 - Sharing my mistakes! - *** UPDATED ***
Post by: mikethm on June 05, 2008, 12:12:44 PM

I got my IR leds from farnell's singapore office. As I was unwilling to wait for them to ship parts from their UK HQ, I took whatever was available...

Vishay TSUS5202 and TSAL5300.As Osram was more expensive, I didn't take any of those.

The TSAL5300 datasheet confuse me about the voltage... http://www.vishay.com/docs/81008/tsal5300.pdf

So does it say it take 1.6V max or 3V max???

If it is 3V then it would be perfect. Since I am too lazy to build like what you guys did. Me? I simply unscrew a keychain and remove the light led and 2x 3V CR2016 batteries. Then I put in the infra led (had to bend one wire a bit thought...) and a single 3V CR2032. Screw the keychain cover back and that was it.
Title: Re: Electronics 101 - Sharing my mistakes! - *** UPDATED ***
Post by: benpaddlejones on June 05, 2008, 06:33:03 PM
mikethm

My first post explains the theory of this but here is your maths:

Source voltage:
Vishay 5300 Maximum Forward Voltage = 3v
CR2016 3v min voltage = 2 v (approx, need to check battery manufacturers datasheet)
3/2 = 2x CR2016 3v

Resistance
Vishay 5300 Typical Forward Voltage = 1.35v
2x CR2016 3v = 6v
Diode Forward Current = 100ma
http://led.linear1.org/1led.wiz
The wizard recommends a 1W or greater 47 ohm resistor. The color code for 47 ohms is yellow violet black.

Could try 1 battery, may be a little under powered as it drains? Theoretcially needs a resistor but not as bad as 6v. Just put a peice of metal in place of one.

p.s. The Osram's don't work as well as the Vishay, so you made a good choice
Title: Re: Electronics 101 - Sharing my mistakes! - *** UPDATED ***
Post by: Francisco on June 07, 2008, 04:58:22 AM
Like promised, my tests:

Made on my MacBook Pro 15" screen <-- not a very good screen to testing
Made with Uwe Schmidt Wiimote Whiteboard (for Mac)

Prefs:
Mouse movement smoothing -> "Simple Moving Average" +
Mouse movement threshold -> "5 pixels"
and
Mouse movement smoothing -> "none" +
Mouse movement threshold -> "5 pixels"

Made with my 2 IR Pens:
http://clinik.net/wiimote/wiimote_info_my_pen_1.php (http://clinik.net/wiimote/wiimote_info_my_pen_1.php)
http://clinik.net/wiimote/wiimote_info_my_pen_2.php (http://clinik.net/wiimote/wiimote_info_my_pen_2.php)

(http://clinik.net/wiimote/ww_ir_pens.jpg)

http://clinik.net/wiimote/ (http://clinik.net/wiimote/)

Cheers
Title: Re: Electronics 101 - Sharing my mistakes! - *** UPDATED ***
Post by: benpaddlejones on June 07, 2008, 08:18:30 PM
Fransico
Interesting?
I think there is fine but noticable difference!

I would like to compare on a Data Projected Whiteboard, which should amplify differences. Also compare against the Vishay TSAL6400 which has been the standard to date.

I'm writing reports and have 6000 words due to uni this week, so no time. But in a few weeks, I'm going to do a big test to quantify which is the best for the Whiteboard application.

I will order a few and include in my test.

Title: Re: Electronics 101 - Sharing my mistakes! - *** UPDATED ***
Post by: Francisco on June 07, 2008, 09:01:30 PM
I will be waiting your tests!
Title: Re: Electronics 101 - Sharing my mistakes! - *** UPDATED ***
Post by: Adrian on June 12, 2008, 01:03:51 AM
Hi Ben - I too am a teacher and are keen to give this project a go. I have ordered all the parts and I was wondering what bluetooth setup you have - are you using an adapter or laptop inbuilt?
Title: Re: Electronics 101 - Sharing my mistakes! - *** UPDATED ***
Post by: benpaddlejones on June 12, 2008, 03:43:11 AM
My school laptop:
Widcomm Stack
Small process to connect but works fine

Home Desktop:
BlueSolie Stack
Very easy to connect

If you need a Bluetooth Device buy a dongle and make sure has Bluesolie Software. If you have internal try setting it up if you have problems post to "Bluetooth & Connectivity" section and the user base will have no problems in helping you.

Title: Re: Electronics 101 - Sharing my mistakes! - *** UPDATED ***
Post by: jamesKL on September 05, 2008, 09:42:52 AM
so basically is about the peak wavelength and the viewing angle is important rite may i know what is beam angle and how is it calculate?

Thanks

James
Title: Re: Electronics 101 - Sharing my mistakes! - *** UPDATED ***
Post by: benpaddlejones on September 05, 2008, 06:10:18 PM
jameskl

Ben :)
Title: Re: Electronics 101 - Sharing my mistakes! - *** UPDATED ***
Post by: jamesKL on September 06, 2008, 10:07:41 PM
Ben i know the datashet can be obtain easily, but now the problem is I have seen the beam angle written like this "+/-25" and some written like this "40". Is the the +/-25 means 50 degree? just want o clear this doubt
Title: Re: Electronics 101 - Sharing my mistakes! - *** UPDATED ***
Post by: benpaddlejones on September 07, 2008, 03:18:21 AM
JamesKL

40 degree means 20 each side
20+/- means 20 each side

Make sure you get the information from the datasheet as retailers often get it wrong. You also need to look at the irradation spectrum (a visual representaion of a cross section of the detectable light) as the 40 degrees may only occur very close to the source.

Title: Re: Electronics 101 - Sharing my mistakes! - *** UPDATED ***
Post by: fpill on September 12, 2008, 06:25:25 PM
Has anyone actually done a comparison (tracking movement, max distance to Wii remote....) of similar LED's with only a difference of viewing angle?  I'd be more interested if the comparison was done on a whiteboard, not a computer screen.
For example TSAL6100 vs TSAL 6200?

fpill

I'm not suggesting these are better than TSAL 6400, just looking for and actual comparison of viewing angle not just theory.
Title: Re: Electronics 101 - Sharing my mistakes! - *** UPDATED ***
Post by: benpaddlejones on September 13, 2008, 02:49:22 AM
fpill
I tried but was unable to produce a test consistent enough to provide valid results. I found that no matter what I did I couldn't even get consistency from the same pen. As the holding angle, smoothing function and hand speed have considerable input into the outcome.

Whilst I am personally a huge risk taker and a big believer in "if it ain't broke, brake it anyway" this is in my opinion a case of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it". The Vishal TSAL6400 works fantastic, lets focus our energy on a more consistent connection agent and Boonjins awesome work with Wiimote Smoothboard!

Title: My IRPen #2 page
Post by: Francisco on October 06, 2008, 08:35:38 AM
Updated!
Now with the 'positive' vs 'negative' IR Led info.
"As in other diodes, current flows easily from the p-side, or anode, to the n-side, or cathode, but not in the reverse direction."

Check it here:
http://clinik.net/wiimote/wiimote_info_my_pen_2.php

The new image only:
(http://clinik.net/wiimote/ir_pen_34.jpg)

Cheers
Francisco

Title: Re: Electronics 101 - Basics for those who want to make their own IR-Pen.
Post by: eyucel on January 12, 2009, 01:55:54 AM
Lesson 7: How do I know my IR-LED works???

Hi Ben,

Bu using this free program, you can easily check whether your led is working  or not, also you can get information when it is seen by the wiimote, you can see how big the IR blob is.

Take care
Title: Re: Electronics 101 - Basics for those who want to make their own IR-Pen.
Post by: Francisco on February 08, 2009, 01:16:02 PM
UPDATED
The Missing Test ;)
With the help (or the leds) of Undcon and my leds I made this test:

Vishay TSAL 5300 vs Vishay TSAL 6400

And... Undcon: Sorry the long delay... but here they are!!!
'Read' this images with the Datasheet of the two Leds (links in my wiimote web page http://clinik.net/wiimote/wiimote_info_my_pen_2.php (http://clinik.net/wiimote/wiimote_info_my_pen_2.php) -hidden on vertical text).

(http://clinik.net/wiimote/DSC02515-.jpg)
about my new toy... check Arduino stuff in this good Portuguese store: http://inmotion.pt/ (http://inmotion.pt/)

(http://clinik.net/wiimote/DSC02516-.jpg)

(http://clinik.net/wiimote/DSC02518-.jpg)

UPDATE after Ben :)
New set, new fotos, and changing the position of ir leds. Same results!

(http://clinik.net/wiimote/DSC02527B-.jpg)

(http://clinik.net/wiimote/DSC02525-.jpg)
(NOT manipulated)

(http://clinik.net/wiimote/DSC02526-.jpg)
(NOT manipulated)

(http://clinik.net/wiimote/DSC02525-6-.jpg)
(MANIPULATED)

Title: Re: Electronics 101 - Basics for those who want to make their own IR-Pen.
Post by: benpaddlejones on February 08, 2009, 04:47:31 PM
Francisco
Interesting, great evidence.

Could you do the exact smame setup & tests but swap the IR-Leds just to make sure nota  function of woire length or location in the circuit.

This will confirm that the TSAL5300 is definately much brighter head on will comment should be choice for rear displays/tracking. But the TSAL6400 is slighly brighter at 90 degree's and better for centrally placed Wiimotes.

Title: Re: Electronics 101 - Basics for those who want to make their own IR-Pen.
Post by: benpaddlejones on February 08, 2009, 11:59:41 PM
Francisco
Your tests provide a really interesting visual on the radient intenisty arc v angle of intensity. Given that both TSAL5300 & TSAL6400 output high volumns of IR in the 940nm (-+10) range that the Wiimote demands, the type of light is identical for both IR-Leds.

What makes the difference is the shape of light. I think this test validates that the TSAL5300 is a better choice for close range or rear tracking views. But the clear round IR from the TSAL6400 will make it preferential for long range or less oblique Wiimote views.

That said given that many are now diffusing the IR-Led (see: http://www.wiimoteproject.com/ir-pens/how-well-does-diffusing-the-led-work/ (http://www.wiimoteproject.com/ir-pens/how-well-does-diffusing-the-led-work/)) I think thye will both be much of muchness. exept in the close range and rear tracking orientations in which yes the TSAL5300 will have an advantage (diffusing the IR-Led, will even this advantage).

When I ran tests on the 100 odd IR-Leds over 6 months ago I didn't buy a TSAL5300 because it was so close to the TSAL6400.

Can you please also post more info (in a new post under http://www.wiimoteproject.com/ir-arrays/ (http://www.wiimoteproject.com/ir-arrays/)) on the fancy device you have plugged the IR-Leds into, looks like those wanting to make an IR-Array may find it a handy short cut.

Title: Re: Electronics 101 - Basics for those who want to make their own IR-Pen.
Post by: zsoc on February 22, 2009, 10:18:48 AM
Hi all!
My question is the following.
IR LED with 880nm is enough, or I have to buy with 940nm?
Title: Re: Electronics 101 - Basics for those who want to make their own IR-Pen.
Post by: wiipenmaker on February 22, 2009, 02:57:45 PM
I would def go with 940.

I have them available here:

http://stores.shop.ebay.com/Infrared-Pen-Interactive-Whiteboard

if you need them
Title: Re: Electronics 101 - Basics for those who want to make their own IR-Pen.
Post by: av12 on March 06, 2009, 04:55:07 PM
i would buy one of them ir pens if they were sold on amazon.co.uk
i wouldnt want to make a paypal and ebay accounts for 1 thing.

if any1 sells these on amazon.co.uk, reply!
Title: Re: Electronics 101 - Basics for those who want to make their own IR-Pen.
Post by: boogerlad on March 16, 2009, 11:36:39 AM
Can anyone here describe to me what short and long range is to me, as in how many meters? Is diffusing via the sanding the led method good for short range only, or does it help in every case? I heard that the vishay tsal6400 and vishay tsal5300 are good, but is the 5300 better for short range compared to the 6400? Would diffusing the 5300 make it even better? Which one is most ideal for a sensor bar?
Title: Re: Electronics 101 - Basics for those who want to make their own IR-Pen.
Post by: benpaddlejones on March 16, 2009, 07:57:36 PM
Difussing improves long & short range. As it creates a larger more define IR-Blob. What is lost is the reflection value, not an issue for a sensor bar. Either 6400 or 5300 will do your job nicely.

Title: Re: Electronics 101 - Basics for those who want to make their own IR-Pen.
Post by: boogerlad on March 16, 2009, 09:17:23 PM
from what I've been reading, you say that the 5300 is best for shorter range? Define short range and long range for me please. Also, if i find the 5300 cheaper, i should just get that correct?
Title: Re: Electronics 101 - Basics for those who want to make their own IR-Pen.
Post by: benpaddlejones on March 17, 2009, 12:24:56 AM
As a rock climber this reminds me very much of the multiple questions I get from new climbers about the best choice for protection. It depends, (whats available, rock type, weather, expereince, etc)? The problem is far more complex than just a definition of range.

If you really want to argue the merrits you need to consider:
- Level of diffusion
- Surace
- Reflection value
- Angle holding IR-Pen
- Wiimote location
- Battery source
- Rear projection & rear detection
- Body position
- User expereince
- The list goes on

The best advice I can give you is buy both and see which works best for your specific situation. The reality for 99.9% of users is you won't notice a significant difference.

They cost 50 cents each so we are not talking about busting the budget. If you buy from farnell buy both with 1 postage.

It would be nice to say "use TSAL5300 for X setup" and "TSAL6400 fr Y setup" but I honestly can't. If you want a concept of some of the setup options look at: http://www.boonjin.com/smoothboard/index.php?title=IWB_installation_option

I hope this helps (without being of any real help), let me know if I can explain more.

Title: Re: Electronics 101 - Basics for those who want to make their own IR-Pen.
Post by: boogerlad on March 17, 2009, 09:58:32 AM
thanks for all your help. I know what to do now =)
Title: Re: Electronics 101 - Basics for those who want to make their own IR-Pen.
Post by: benpaddlejones on March 17, 2009, 05:45:27 PM
I'd be very keen to here what your experiences are from comparing the two IR-Leds. Perhaps worth putting in the http://www.wiimoteproject.com/ir-pens/tsal5300-v-s-tsal6400/ post.

Title: Re: Electronics 101 - Basics for those who want to make their own IR-Pen.
Post by: luiziano on September 21, 2009, 06:45:41 AM
Hi all! First I want to say that this is one wonderful forum,keep up the good work!
My question is about the Ir diode-in my town I can only find     the Vishay  TSUS5402 diode
Here is the datasheet http://www.datasheetcatalog.org/datasheet2/a/0s4cfts7uls54gietlirxr01lkpy.pdf (http://www.datasheetcatalog.org/datasheet2/a/0s4cfts7uls54gietlirxr01lkpy.pdf)
Is it going to do the job?What do you think?
Title: Re: Electronics 101 - Basics for those who want to make their own IR-Pen.
Post by: benpaddlejones on September 21, 2009, 08:08:53 AM
luiziano
Looks all OK, but i suggest you buy 1-2 and test first. As I found in all my testing of different IR-Leds whats written on the data sheet and what it does are often very different. The vishay TSAL6400 is your safest bet, but f this is all you can get see what happens.

Post by: luiziano on September 22, 2009, 01:57:26 AM
Thanks for the answer!And just a last question,I can't understand from the datasheet what is the typical forward voltage of the diode?One time it says it is 1.3 and the next 2.2.Can you help ?
Title: Re: Electronics 101 - Basics for those who want to make their own IR-Pen.
Post by: benpaddlejones on September 22, 2009, 07:57:05 PM
luiziano
Vishay updated their data sheet both same beast :)

Title: Re: Electronics 101 - Basics for those who want to make their own IR-Pen.
Post by: shakespeare1212 on October 21, 2009, 05:09:13 AM
For those of you who are too lazy to go to the LED calculator page referenced above. Here is the output I got for it for some common voltage levels. This would only be for the TSAL 6400 IR LED, which has a forward volatage of 1.5 Volts and a forward current of 100 mAmp.

For two AA, AAA, C or D batteries, giving about 3 Volts:

Use a 15 ohm / 1/2 watt resistor.

For 3 button cells AG13 or LR44, giving about 4.5 Volts:

Use a 33 ohm / 1 Watt resistor.

For two 3 volt button cells, giving about 6 Volts:

Use a 47 ohm / 1 Watt resistor.

Use this information at your own risk. I believe it to be accurate, but I am not taking responsibility for any losses that may occur through it's use or miss-use.

James.

Title: Re: Electronics 101 - Basics for those who want to make their own IR-Pen.
Post by: Statik on January 27, 2010, 12:43:25 PM
This LED looks comparable, what do you think?
http://datasheet.octopart.com/OED-EL-1L2-Lumex-datasheet-164846.pdf

Available at Digikey:
http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=67-1001-ND
Title: Re: Electronics 101 - Basics for those who want to make their own IR-Pen.
Post by: benpaddlejones on January 27, 2010, 09:47:22 PM
Statik
It looks the part, but I have found with many of tehse cheaper IR-leds that the specs and the reality are not quite aligned. Always a case of suck and see.

Title: Re: Electronics 101 - Basics for those who want to make their own IR-Pen.
Post by: shakespeare1212 on February 14, 2010, 04:23:48 PM
So far this video is best that I have found on YouTube about getting profesion result from soldering. Solding can be difficult and frustrating folks. I can't tell you how many "bad words" my soldering iron has had to hear from my lips but that's because sometimes it's F**KING USELESS!  :-)

Here are some things that we can do that really help.